SO DAIHO POSTS:

As far as the earth being the center of the universe is concerned I would suggest you read Guillermo Gonzoalez and Jay W. Richards book, The Privileged Planet. Sure, the earth isn't at the geographical center, but it isn't an insignificant speck of dust in the universe either. Their book offers mountains of evidence that shows we need not be afraid of the vast realm of natural science in search of the essence of knowledge. God can be found everywhere in nature because He created it. God designed our surroundings for us to discover information about them. Earth is perfectly positioned to allow us to map the structure of our galaxy even though we are inside it. From this standpoint, we are at the center of the cosmos after all!!

As far as carbon dating and the days in Genesis, no one has all the answers. Carbon dating only gives thousands of years so of course Christians wonder how millions of years can be squeezed from that. The actual facts of natural science has demonstrated there are many more processes indicating a young earth than processes that give the earth an old age in the billions.

Christianity says let the scientists do their thing for she is sure that natural science and knowledge of it will never contradict Christianity or God.

SO DAIHO POSTS:

No, I don't seek my own truth for that would be behaving in a way that is indifferent to God. God is God and He is Truth, and as long as we are His creatures, we are obligated to Him, to do His right, religiously, privately, publicly, and socially.

I do my best to conduct my life entirely according to the teachings (through Scripture and Tradition) of the Catholic Church whose sole reason she was established by Christ is for man's eternal salvation. For this I am peaceful almost beyond words; it's like being cradled through life in the very hands of God. We were discussing the soul earlier and this reminds me of a verse from the Book of Wisdom 3:1-4. "The souls of the just are in the hand of God, and the torment of death shall not touch them. In the sight of the unwise, they seem to die:..but they are in peace...there hope is full of immortality."



Through her liturgy, which is daily filled with Scripture passages, the Chruch brings her knowledge of it to the people, and the Chruch urges that Scripture be used as the subject of private prayer and meditation. Even then, I don't read Scriputre according to my own understanding. I seek out the Church's interpretation. Ask KFC, she gets on 'my case' about that all the time.

SODAIHO POSTS:


Yes, I would agree that with Catholicism, faith plays the most important part. By faith I mean what St. Thomas Aquinas teaches as "that habit of mind whereby we attain to an initial grasp of eternal life, leading the understanding to assent to things unseen." Faith is a habit, a disposition which moves a person to adhere firmly to what God has revealed. I would say the time to reality test as you say is making sure you firmly know what God has revealed and that you are not following something that is false....which takes us back to Truth....

Faith therefore is anchored in Christ, the perfector of faith. He is the cause of faith, and it's in Him that we believe in the first instance. Christ as the author of grace infuses the virtue of faith into us. In Heaven faith is transformed into glory therefore, faith in Christ is the foundation of hope. That is why the CHristian life in this world even with suffering and enduring the affliction of it makes sense. It's the pilgrimage, a new exodus, ever hopeful or reaching the heavenly promised land.

SODAIHO POSTS:

This is good to know.

I asked because I remember years ago seeing TV news footage on TV of Buddhist priests who had committed suicide by setting themselves on fire in a public place.

HAHAHAHAHA what ridiculous, selfish prattle. Judging by your description of this book (which I'm sure is apt and accurate, as you always do your homework well) I'd rather pluck my eyeballs forcibly from their sockets than read that tripe.

Be freakin' well.

ya know SC....why don't you put some meat behind your comments?

Put your brain to use and back up what you fingers are typing!

Tell Lula WHY what she said is ridiculous and selfish.

I happen to think what she said was very interesting and I agree with her.

Dear L: Thank you for your faith and your practice of your faith. I believe you are completely at peace and that is a blessing. I, too, am at complete peace. My practice is serene and my life is filled with joy, even though I work with great suffering. Doctrinal differences are what they are. I shrug my shoulders and say you are blessed to have yours and to embrace them.

A bow to you.

No screaming at all. Just emphasizing.



And i am the mechanistic and materialistic one? These natural laws just existed by themselves?

and "control is fantasy"? the universe in front of our eyes runs as clockwork with amazing accuracy and precision and that is not control?

I guess if we close our eyes long enough we wont see much, can we?

following the "Great way" discovered by someone who just opened his eyes and noticed it is not bad in itself. However, ignoring all what is around us with its implications is not a good idea.

Sodaiho and Lola.

Just as any point on the surface of a sphere could be considered its center, this 3-D universe containing Earth is the surface of the 4-D space-time sphere. So the Earth, a point on that 3-D surface could be considered its center. and so is any other point in that 3-D surface.

So, we are at the center, but so is everything else. How is that for an amazing Creation of an Amazing God.

Can we ignore that and say it just existed all-along by itself?

I guess some can when they just dont think about it.

But one of our brain's main functions is to think not just to run our bodily functions. Eliminating that capability is a great mistake.

So Daiho, I have been lurking and reading on this thread as I will be the first to admit my knowledge of the subject matter is minimal, and I hoped to learn some things. Which I have.

But I am curious about this statement. And, if you have the time, would like you to delve deeper into it. I understand why Suicide is unacceptable to Christians (and to a lesser extent why it is illegal). But given what I have read here, and on other threads about your beliefs, I would be interested to know why it is unacceptable to Zen Buddhism (not necessarily to you in particular).

Thanks for explaining some of your beliefs. I look forward to reading more.

Dear Dr. Guy,
You are welcome.



Our vow, "Do Not Kill", the first of ten grave precepts, is aimed at developing a clear understanding that all life is precious. We are here to nurture each other, care for each other, and protect each other. Suicide for the sake of escaping personal pain is not an action aimed at nurturing others, but relieving oneself of the burden of living.

As in all things, from a Buddhist point of view, both the small, relative view and the large, absolute view must be considered. This is why I would not support legal limitations on such actions. Legalism lives in a world of absolutes and yet our world is full of shades and hues. Better, a precept which is more a principle than a rule.

I hope this helps some.

Be well.

It does. Again thanks. But if I may ask further - what about to end suffereing (terminally ill people). I know this aspect of suicide is one that is perplexing Christians, and I am not going to pretend I know the answer from a Christian perspective (other than the absolutes that are part of the teachings).

ThinkAloud, you might want to take another look at philosophy. Aristotle, for example, suggested there were four types of cause. Formal cause or the 'modern' mechanistic universe, is but one. There is also material, efficient, and final cause. Point of view is very important, as is being able to understand on multiple levels.

You might think of a solar system running for countless millenia as "control" and I could understand that view. But to suggest that there is a creator controling it is anthropomorphizing natural laws.

If it helps you feel better to think about beginings in theological terms, have a controlling God in the sky looking over your shoulder, please embrace Him. I mean embrace Him. Make Him an absolute part of you to the point that it would be impossible to see the line where you end and God begins. This would be wonderful non-duality. And it would also be a Buddhist practice of sorts.

Be well.

DrGuy, Our precept is do not kill. Yet, we also vow to free beings from suffering. Quite a dilemma. Life is like that. Never simple. None of us should have an answer. What we do is live. We do the best we can living in a messy universe.

If a person were suffering so badly that their life was a living hell and this hell creates multiple hells for the loved ones surrounding him or her, how is it nurturing to maintain that life? Still, we do indeed learn from pain, don't we? And learning to somehow change our relationship to suffering can make that suffering a great teacher. Lessons are lost if we avoid suffering completely, deny its existance, or otherwise attempt to escape it.

So there is no easy answer and I believe that each and every religious point of view, if it is compassionate, would struggle with this very personal question. I think this struggle is the struggle of being human.

Be well.

Very profound. IN this debate there has been a lot of discussion about how Buddhism is so very different than Christianity - and it is in many ways. Yet in some, they are a lot alike.

Thank you for your answer. It is not a definitive answer, but then most of us (including me) do not have one for questions of this sort.

Regarding suicide and euthanasia-----

SO DAIHO POSTS:

Dr Guy POSTS:

Again, for me, when I do not have answers or sometimes even proper perspective to profound questions, I turn to wisdom, guidance and knowledge of the Church. This is what the Catechism has to say on these:

2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God wo has given it to him. It is God who remains the Sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for His honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not our to dispose of.

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor becasue it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

2276 Euthanasia

Those whose lives are diminished or weakined deserve special respect. Sick or handicapped persons should be helped to lead lives as noramal as possible.

2277 Whatever its motives and means, direct euthanasia consists in putting an end to the lives of handicapped, sick or dying persons. It is morally unacceptable. Thus an act or omission which, of itself or by intention, causes death in order to eliminate suffering constitutes a murder gravely contrary to the dignity of the human person and to the respect due to the living GOd, his Creator. The error of judgment into which one can fall in good faith does not change the nature of this murderous act, which must always be forbidden and excluded.

2278 Discontinuing medical procedures that are burdensome, dangerous, extraordinary or disproportionate to the expected outcome can be legitimate; it is the refusal of "over zealous" treatment. Here one does not will to cause death; one's inability to impede it is merely accepted. The decisions should be made by the patient if he is competent and able or, if not, by those legally entitled to act for the patient, whose reasonable will and legitimate interests must always be respected.

2279 Even if death is thought imminent, the ordinary care owed to a sick person cannot be legitimately interrupted. The use of painkillers to alleviate the sufferings of the dying, even at the risk of shortening their days, can be morally in conformity with human dignity if death is not willed as either an end or a means, but only forseen and tolerated as inevitable. Pallitave care is a special form of disinterested charity. As such it should be encouraged.

Hello L: This is an odd sort of passage, in my view. It seems to say that eliminating suffering is not in keeping with the moral dignity of a person. I cannot abide in this, nor do I believe a loving and compassionate God would. Suffering is messy, it is often absolutely horrific. I cannot believe God wold consider it "murder" to end a person's suffering under such conditions. But then, religions such as yours are deotological and leave little room for compassionate action that goes against the rules. The problem I have with this is that it leaves no room for human discretion on the one hand and leaves us at the mercy of a rule-based ethic on the other. Even the rabbis of old in the Jewish tradition, so legalistivc as they were, recognized the need for case by case analysis and some degree of relativism.

Still, a consistent moral point of view is an asset to us.

Be well.