Nirvana is basically heaven, not eternal death.  Reaching Nirvana means that you have ended your cycle of reincarnation and exist in endless peace.

Not all forms of Buddhism believe in endless reincarnation, or reincarnation at all.  There were many Buddhas and there continue to be more.  Siddhartha was just one Buddha.

You can't really compare Buddhism to Christianity- it just doesn't work.  Buddhism is more about a road to enlightenment and living a peaceful existence as to not harm another being. Christianity is focused on what happens after death and living a life to make sure that you end up in heaven.

"After experiencing nirvana Himself, He decided to teach others the path to the same...when He died, He passed through pari nirvana, the complete nirvana. Nirvana literally means extinguishing or unbinding." http://www.buddhist-temples.com/nirvana-buddhism.html

Nirvana can't mean heaven because in Buddhism there is the realm of heaven in which the deities live. It is one of the forms of reincarnation at the top of the rung, but with possibly one of the lowest chances of actually reaching enlightenment.
"exist in endless peace" -- yes, if you were spiritually dead, you would be at eternal peace.

"Not all forms of Buddhism believe in endless reincarnation, or reincarnation at all." --I'm didn't realize. Which ones are those? There are six sects of Buddhism, right? I'm not sure which one you're talking about.

And the many Buddha thing, I understand that, but it still doesn't exclude spiritual suicide from a viable possibility.

"You can't really compare Buddhism to Christianity- it just doesn't work. Buddhism is more about a road to enlightenment and living a peaceful existence as to not harm another being. Christianity is focused on what happens after death and living a life to make sure that you end up in heaven."
-- Christianity's goal is living a good life to get into heaven...how is that unlike Buddhism? You mustn't kill or harm another creature, i.e. live a good life, in order to reach nirvana, described by you as "basically heaven." Therefore, I don't see the difference. Christianity is called to a peaceful existence as well. And Christians are to seek God out and learn His way, certain qualifying for a type of enlightenment. So don't write me off so quickly.

While I agree you can't compare the two really there are good things about Buddhism that Christians would agree with.

Also Christianity is NOT focused on what happens after death so much as it's focus is on Christ in the here and now as the author and finisher of our faith. Yes, eternal life is part of it, but it's not the reason we become Christians. We become Christians to have a real relationship with the creator who created us longing to be with him someday. But in the meantime, we enjoy the relationship day to day. The Christian whose focus is clearly on Christ will make the most impact on his world around him.

I don't think they are really so seperate to the point that you can't compare them. If so, then why would Jesuit priests be Zen Masters?
http://ncrcafe.org/node/1057


1. Buddhism
2. Christianity
1. Searches for enlightenment thru meditation
2. Searches for truth of God (enlightenment) thru prayer and devotion (and even mediation)
1. Believes that everything is suffering caused by desire
2. Believes that you suffer because you give into your desires/sins
1. Believes a person, Buddha, brought and taught the truth of the universe
2. Believes a person, Christ, brought and taught the truth of the universe
1. Believes that each of us must escape suffering by living by certain precepts and obtaining certain goals
2. Believes that each of us must reach non-suffering by living by certain precepts and obtaining certain goals
1. Puts their hands together at temples, asks for favors, and donates money
2. Puts their hands together at churches, asks for favors, and donates money
1. Lives a peaceful existence as to not harm another being, or so is proclaimed
2. Lives a peaceful existence as to not harm another human being, or so is proclaimed
1. Focuses their energy on reaching a realm of existance after death so as to not suffer
2. Focuses their energy on reaching heave after death so as to not suffer
1. Believes in gods, even though they are irrelevant
2. Believes in one God, which is relevant
1. Believes we have been reborn, and reborn, and reborn
2. Believes we will be reborn
1. Believes that one man has shown us the way to end suffering and death, and rebirth
2. Believes that one man has shown us the way to end suffering and death
1. Believes that we can, if applying ourselves and devoting the time, can walk that path
2. Believes that we can, if applying ourselves and devoting the trime, can walk that path
1. Believes that one must empty himself/herself to find the path
2. Believes that one must humble (a form of emptying) himself/herself to follow the path
1. Has a cannon, even if people refuse it
2. Has a cannon, even if people refuse it

I'll have more. After I spent a summer in a Buddhist monestary, I had a lot of thoughts on this, even more so than when I was taking all of those classes in university about Buddhism, or reading all of those books on it. I'll get my notebook and get back to you.

I think it is ignorance to deny looking for the links and the similarities. It seems to be a defensive move to close off and try to preempt a conversation by claiming simply that they are too different. If there is one truth, and we are all looking at it from different angles, then wouldn't there be some things that are similar? Certainly similar enough to compare?

CONTEGO WRITES:

I'd say that practicing Buddhism is "suicide" of the soul...and my advice to any Christian is to stay away from it...as far away as possible. The Buddhism code of conduct differs immensely from the Christian code. Buddhism knows nothing of God nor of duties to God.

Sure there are some external ethical resemblances in conduct between Christianity and Buddhism, but so what? They may be accounted for by the fact that men everywhere have practically the same feelings, experiences and desires. Man is essentially a social being and it's not surprising that a leader should attract followers. Man is naturally religious and he will tend to cling to the religion he has been taught above all when the true religion has not been within his reach. And even when the true religion has been put before him, the influence of heredity and environment together with prejudice, may prevent his viewing it impartially.

CONTEGO POSTS:

The life and teachings of Buddha cannot be ranked on the same plane as that of the life of Christ.

Buddha never claimed to be more than an ordinary human being, nor ever claimed to be able to show his fellow man the way to God for he knew nothing of God. Instead, he claimed to show man the way to peace of the soul and how to escape the worries and trials of this life. Christ claimed to be God and demanded for Himself the love and absolute service of mankind. There is a world of difference between the divine personality of Jesus Christ and the merely human personality of of Gautama.


Buddhism is based on a pessimistic view of life and is entirely self-centered. It teaches that man is not essentially different from animals, that he goes through a series of transmigrations
ending practically in annihilation. While Christians believe they are created by God and owe Him obedience and worship serving Him in humility and doing all for the love of Him and neighbor.

Buddhists regard man as a particle of a blind universe whose whole aim is to avoid distress and be at peace in this world. Even charity to others is based on love of self insofar as enmity disturbs one so much interiorly.

Where Christians are saved through Christ who is the Way, the Truth, and the LIfe, Buddhists claim they need no Savior. Buddha saves no one. He indicates his way and each can attain the end by his own powers. There is but one Christ for all ages. But there must be a series of Buddhas, a new Buddha appearing as the work of each one fails.



I have said enough to show the codes of Buddhism and of Christianity are essentially different...and good reason why the Christian should not practice Buddhism.

Lulipilgrim,

Your account of Buddhism is very interesting.



There is no soul to suicide. Show me a soul. Its a figment of our imagination and a delusion, a dangerous one at that, as it creates a desire to carry on forever...talk about selfish.

Buddhist codes of conduct are, in fact, superior to Christian codes. For example, we vow not to kill, you vow not to murder. Our codes are for the manifestation of heaven on earth and not consequentialist. Rewards are self centered, a Christian notion.

Buddhists do not deny God, many Buddhists are followers of other faiths, including Christianity. Buddhism is not an "ism" in the common sense, it is a practice of self discovery.



Yes, I would say this is true. Christians are a very stiff-necked people.



Again, we agree, Christ's life was in fact inferior to the Buddha's. On the one hand, a man who became completely enlightened, taught selflessly for nearly fifty years, and left us with a great legacy of true peace and charity. Christ, contentious and deluded, believed himself to be God of all things, got himself crucified and the legacty of his church has been one of millenias of war, tormet, and sin. You are quite correct, no comparison.



Oh my. How pessimistic is it to suggest life is eternal? Buddhist's teach there is no permenant hell or heaven, no fire, no brimstone, no hateful, vengeful God. We teach we are all perfect as we are, that as we manifest evil, we can also manifest good, there is no original sin. These are Buddhist teachings. That the self is an illusion? Hardly self centered. Buddhism teaches that we, including all beings, are one, as a result we should be kind to one another. We should be kind because it is a good thing, of its own.



Buddha and Christ teach much the same thing. Christ's way, at least the way described in the Sermon on the Mount, was essentially the same as the Buddha's lifelong teaching. The way is a life, not a man, much less a deluded one. There are no series of buddhas. Just buddha. You are buddha. I am buddha. Each of us is buddha. In the same way that Christ as God is in each of us, so too, buddha. Christ and Buddha are one in the same. Failure is not possible.

Be well.

SO DAIHO POSTS:

So Daiho,

DId you notice in my reply to Contego's question that I put the word suicide in quotes? I wrote...."I'd say that practicing Buddhism is "suicide" of the soul". Surely, So Daiho, you know what I meant by that.

I'd like to discuss the morality of suicide but first would like to know what Buddhism teaches concerning suicide?

Catholics believe that the conscious principle --the soul-- of the individual is endless. Christ came to earth to preach immortality. He gave mankind the answer to when, how and where. "O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?" 1 Cor.15:55.

You say, "Show me the soul." Well, I can't and least not directly, but I can tell you about it...paint a picture in words. You and I and every living human being has a soul. The soul is the life principle. It's a spiritual entity which moves on its own volition being independent of external forces.

The soul is a simple substance having no parts nor is it subject to decomposition, disintegration, or dissolution from within.

It is an immaterial, indivisible, indestructible unit, incapable of extinction, in a word, immortal.

It is the conscious art principle created by God not of man.

You've mentioned the Talmud on occasion on these JU discussions.
It says,

"As God fills the whole world, so does the soul fill the whole body;
As God sees and is not seen, so the soul sees and is not seen;
As God nourishes the whole world, so does the soul nourish the whole body.
As God worketh in secret, so does the soul dwell in secret.
Therefore let him who possesses these five properties praise Him to whom these five attributes belong."

The distinguishing characteristics of the soul are:

Its power of seeing, thinking, willing.
Its power of reflection.
Its power to claim possession of the body.
Its ability to create rational designs from immaterial substance.
Its capacity to weigh philosophies by God's standards, known through reason and revelation.
Its possession of the faculty which enables it to see at once the positive art principle of the human mind and the natural acts of the physical man.

There is human and Divine proof of immortality. The soul conscious of being under the law of things spiritual craving perfection, Absloute Truth, Goodness and Love--only to be realized in an eternity with its Creator--Almighty God. The word of Christ, "Fear ye not them that kill the body and are not able to kill the soul". St.Matt 10:28.

Peace,

Sodaiho, There are many things you are avoiding in your discussion the most obvious of which is EXISTENCE itself.

Where did all what you see come from?

Avoiding that central question doesnt make it disappear. Unless you know the origin and the rules of going forward you cant reach the end safely no matter how much or how long meditation you do.



you want to see the soul? or you want to know that it exists? just because you dont see something it doesnt mean it is a figment of imagination.

To know it exists is easy enough. Look at a dead body and tell me what is the difference between it and a live one. you can get all the main functions of that dead body going with life-support systems, still it is dead. so where did the life that was there go? through what? what exactly did the body lose to become dead?

what was lost is the Soul. and it is right infront of all to see. You dont need "enlightenment" to know that.



If that is the case, does that mean they follow that God's guidelines or just acknowledge Him then ignore Him?

If it is just a practice of self discovery, then it could be practiced while also worshipping God, couldn't it?





So we should be kind because it is good: Great. But why is that? because it makes you feel good? because it is good for the society? but again why is that? to maintain peace in the society? ..... any answer to any of that will end up in some kind of a reward then you say: rewards are self centered, of course it is. that is why you should be kind

Finally you say:



then what about those who dont like to be kind to others? what if they are not just rude to others but vicious and abusers of others? they just get scot free or what? who holds them to account? no one?

no rewards, no punishnment, just utopian thinking with no consideration of actually living life as it exists?

Just wondering.

Good Morning,

ThinkAloud, Lullipilgrim, wonderful comments. Let me address some of ThinkAloud's questions.



There is no pragmatic reason to examine this question in our lives. A careful examination of life itself offers us a clue: this is because that is, this falls away because that falls away. All life is dependent upon other life without end ore beginning. Beginnings and ends are merely the limits of our own mind's ability to grapple with infinity.



There is no end and safety from what? When we live according to the Great way there is no birth, no death, nothing to fear and no hindrance in the mind.



There is no soul to see. A soul is a human delusion. All things are conditioned. By this I mean that everything is dependent upon everything else. A body is an aggregate of conditions that make life possible. When those conditions no longer exist, life ceases. Just because we want to think that there 'must be something' that exceeds our lifespan does not make it so. Moreover, this desire itself is a major source of our suffering and is,m in fact, extremely self-centered, and (in my opinion) immature. What is right in front of us is our Buddha Nature. This is the sea from which all waves are made.



Buddhists practice to discover and become one with the Universe. One might (as some Christian and Jewish mystics have also discovered) understand this to be God. Our need as human beings to anthropomorphise God leads us to a great mistake and in fact takes us away from knowing him. ThinkAloud, the entire universe is God: you, me, the ants beneath your feet. And as this is the case, everything we do is sacred activity when we do it with reverence and mindfullness. The practice of Zen, then, is worship itself.



No, because it enhances and supports life. In a manner of speaking, since we are alive, it might be self centered, yet this Self is the self of Big Mind, not Small Mind. This self is the universal Self, God.

We should act for the sake of life, not because of a fear of punishment or a desire for a reward.



ThinkAloud, I said there is no permenant hell or heaven, not that these realms do not exist. These realms exist right here, right now. Those who aren't kind, but are rude or savage are suffering as they are. This suffering is a painful torment caused by greed, hatred, or the delusion that they are somehow seperate from all other beings.

We, each of us, must hold them to account, of course, but we must also act to relieve their suffering. Christian charity, Jewish tzadikah, and Buddhist compassionate action are the same on this point. We do not need a hell or heaven after death to tease us into right conduct. Nor do we need a anthropomorhpized
God-the-Parent to do this. We do it ourselves through our own daily practice.

Now, Lullipilgrim:

You make a case that everything beautiful exists outside of the laws of nature and the universe. Everything beautiful is everything beautiful. It is the universe. I simply say there is nothing that exists independent of something else. Nothing that exists outside of the conditions which enable it to exist. This does not mean that love does not exist, that beauty does not exist, or even epiphanous moments do not exist. It just means they are subject to their conditioning. With the widest possible view, this universe, then is the Infinite: God.

I believe your faith is a beautiful thing. I believe its practice will ultimately take you to the dsame place mine does. In each case they sare fingers pointing to the moon.

Be well.

Christianity's goal is what happens to you AFTER you die. Buddhism focuses on the HERE, the NOW, rather than what may or may not happen once your physical form changes energy (I don't like to say ceases to exist because energy cannot be destroyed, only changed in it's form).

Are you Buddhist yourself? I practiced Mahayana Buddhism for a few years, and I think that in order to understand it you have to immerse yourself in it. Yes, you can get rudimentary knowledge by asking questions of others, but you're not going to understand it until you walk the walk.

Sodaiho ...... Deeeeeear Sodiaho ....

You are closing your eyes intentionally to many many things. Unfortunately, that won't make them go away nor lead anyone to anywhere.

There is no pragmatic reason to examine this question in our lives. A careful examination of life itself offers us a clue: this is because that is, this falls away because that falls away.

Just like that? no need to know why it falls away? till we remove what supports it and it falls on our head and crushes us? great job !!!!!!. WE SHOULD KNOW WHY IT FALLS SO WE CAN AVOID GETTING CRUSHED. Is that pragamatic enough?

That is why we, humans, always tried to figure things out. It is not just curiosity, it is to preserve our life ON THIS EARTH, the life that you are so focused on. That led us to the universe and still it is for the same reason. it is not just idle thinkning, it is fundamental to our existence. Anyone ignores it at their own peril.

There is no end and safety from what? When we live according to the Great way there is no birth, no death, nothing to fear and no hindrance in the mind.

I see. And where did this great way come from? I suppose from Buddha. and where did he get that from? his own mind? and i am supposed to follow his advice? why doesnt he follow my advice? what is so special about Buddha that makes anyone follows what he says? messengers say God conveyed a message to them and ordered them to deliver that message to humanity. What is Buddha's claim to leadership in spiritual matters?

the entire universe is God: you, me, the ants beneath your feet. And as this is the case, everything we do is sacred activity when we do it with reverence and mindfullness. The practice of Zen, then, is worship itself.

This self is the universal Self, God.

Our need as human beings to anthropomorphise God leads us to a great mistake and in fact takes us away from knowing him.

Again, this is all loose talk. Really. The Universe is God, what does that mean? the universe created us? and controls our destiny? and makes some rich and some sick and finally decides when we die?

and what exactly in the universe does all that? the galaxies, the major stars? is there a particular thing in charge of that? or is it the whole universe? including us? then we created ourselves? and determined when we are born and how rich or poor we get?

If the universe does all that, does it mean it thinks? and it created its own laws? and morals?

comon Sodaiho, that is a tall order for a universe that consists mainly of inanimate objects running around in circles with no sign of life except on this Earth and may be, just may be few other planets like it.

Those who aren't kind, but are rude or savage are suffering as they are.

No they are not. most of them are living great lives. just we capture few and few others suffer something barely comparable to what most of the kind people suffer. so where is the accountability?

No need to scream. There is no avoiding anything falling away, knowing or not knowing. It is the nature of all things to die and decay. Very simple.



Trying to figure things out is an avoidance of living things out. You cannot think your way out of nature. What do you think I am ignoring? My practice has been nothing but a serious and dedicated investigation of life and death. In then end, as you would discover yourself with time and practice, there is no such thing as birth and death, these are mental constructs. Just as waves do not "die" as water, and water is not born as "wave", the universe is a constant process; the stuff of it keeps changing. Lines in the procress, such as birth and death, are arbitrary human creations.



The Great Way has always been. It is the process of life itself. Buddha simply opened his eyes and noticed it. You can too. You are not "supposed" to follow his advice. His teaching in fact asks us not to take his word for it. He asks each of us to seek our own truth.

Your take on the messengers reveals a storybook view of how God and Man interact. It is essentially dualistic and therefore ignorant (from a Buddhist perspective). Buddha's claim was that he was awake. A close study of his teaching and a sincere practice demonstrates this truth. No scripture is necessary.



Are you so mechanistic? God? God is a concept. Any limitation, any descriptive word would be immediatly a contradiction. This is why theologians have for centuries avoided trying to define Him in any way but through negation.

Nothing creates us in the sense you suggest. We are a result of the conditions and processes of chemistry and physics and other natural laws. Control is a fantasy. What makes some rich and some poor, some sick and some well is a highly complex weave of social, economic, educational, and genetic conditions. God, as a puppeteer has nothing to do with it. To suggest otherwise would be hubris.



Spoken as a true materialist. Of course they are suffering. Desire itself is suffering. Such people always live in fear of being caught, of being discovered, of losing what they hold on to so tightly in their grasp. In truth, no one can hold onto anything. Everything is change.

Be well.

SODAIHO posts:

Really? Is that the way you read it, So Daiho? I think that there is nothing in Christianity that contradicts the laws of nature, the teachings of natural science. Why? Because the same God is the Author of natural and supernatural truth.

So Daiho, you haven't answered my question.

What does Buddhism teach concerning suicide?

SO DAIHO POSTS:

Seek our own truth?

You know So Daiho, I believe you when you say this and that's precisely why in reply #5 I advise Christians to stay away from it...as far away as possible. Buddhism knows nothing of God nor of duties to God. Its practice centers on the self and reducing that to nothingness.

Seeking our own truth is nihilism.

That Buddha asks this is the most philosophical absurd error.


SO DAIHO POSTS:



God is not foolish and He doesn't give commandments for nothing. He cannot be escaped. Almighty God has told mankind very clearly why He created man, what is the destiny of man, and what man must do in order to attain his destiny. Death arrests every one of us and he who neglects God's just demands for religious worship and acknowledgment will have to answer for his conduct.

Hello L, nice to see you again. Would that this were true, I was under the impression that Christianity held for the longest time that the earth was the center of the universe, that many Christians have trouble with carbon dating, and that the earth and everything in it was created in six actual days. Hmmm. Natural and supernatural are mutually exclusive.



Let me ask you, L, don't you seek your own truth? When you go to church, read your scripture, aren't you seeking your own understanding? You see a passage that resonates and you believe it to be true. You read something that doesn't and you wonder why? We all seek our own truth, its impossible not to. What is also possible is to accept blindly without reality testing. Buddha asked us to reality test, Christianity tends to ask people to take things on faith.

You and I have a very different understanding of nihilism if truth seeking is such. This would mean any philosopher, scientist, seeker would be, by your definition, a nihilist.




You are quite correct, within the system of belief, His commandments should not be taken lightly. Therefore, we should not violate His commandments if we believe they are His. So, why do Christians so consistently and easily cherry pick those commandments they will keep and those they will disregard? God cannot be escaped, you are correct again, as He is everywhere at all times and in all things. What is foolish, in my opinion, is the anthropomorphic tendency to make him a "him", think he has a mind independent of the universe, and that he is sitting around judging every little thing.

You are not talking about conduct...you are talking about belief. I would agree that conduct is essential and moral and ethical conduct are the pillers of our society. You argue that such pillars can only come from God, I don't.

On another topic:



Suicide would not be acceptable unless it was inservice to saving other lives.

Be well.